Dear Seaturtle:

Thank you for appreciating my (failed) effort to incorporate an emoji as meaningful nonetheless.. and you are welcome!

Again, a reminder of how I normally (and here, today) read and reply: I read, quote and reply to one part of your post before reading what comes next.

“I read your whole post first, and feel like we are on the right track, I think I have entered a new stage of facing this trauma and projection of it onto N“- excellent!

“The beginning of this year started with me blaming N for my feelings… Taking responsibility is my new stage“- more excellent and so very well worded, I am impressed!

“The illusion of the projection of F into N is very convincing and often hard to argue, I am suspicious and find little things that points an arrow/projects something F did into N. It is hard for  me to tell if it is a projection or if he is actually behaving similar to my father“-

– Problem is that N is actually behaving similar to your father at times: every person, and particularly every man actually behaves similar to your father in many.. male-human ways. Add to it that both N and F speak the same language, the words they use are the same English words,  But in certain ways (words and behaviors), N does not behave similar to F.

“How am I supposed to truly know the difference between manipulation/dishonesty and truth?“- identify in detail F’s dishonesty.

Picture working in the garden. It being Fall, leaves are everywhere. All you see is leaves. You can’t see the ground. You then rake the leaves and place them in one pile. Now you see a pile of leaves in one area, and the ground everywhere else.  F’s dishonesty is like the leaves covering everywhere. Identifying them (seeing exactly what he did t you) is like gathering his behaviors in one pile so that you can see the ground (N’s/ others’ behaviors).

“I had to take full responsibility for feeling transactional (a new word that has popped up in the vocabulary about my dad and very accurate) and abandoned, this feeling of taking responsibility has a very specific feeling to it. It is humbling, it makes me feel weak“-

– Your father is responsible for causing you to feel transactional in the relationship with him because of the words, expressions and behaviors.  I want to take time out and quote from a website I just came across (goal cast. com) regarding Transactional Relationships:

“Transactional relationships are built on the idea of reciprocation. Both people in the relationship are focused on what they are getting out of it and they expect the other person to hold up their end of the bargain… In family relationships, transactional elements can come into play, too. Typically you’d see this between parents and children when parents bring up the idea of how much they’ve done for their kids and voice an expectation of what they believe they should receive in return. (Love, affection, respect, more phone calls or visits and so on.)… While typically we don’t want our relationships with people we know and love to be transactional, there may be times when transactional dealings with loved ones are a necessary evil. For instance, when new parents are in the throes of caring for an infant… one person cares for the baby for two hours while the other person takes a nap. Or one person takes on kitchen chores while the other handles laundry. Dividing up household and caregiving labor this way can help couples make it through this challenging time. The Bottom Line on Transactional Relationships: What it all comes down to in transactional relationships is intention. In the new parents scenario, for example, both people need to be clear that the intention for having a temporarily transactional relationship is to help each other out and be able to attend to their needs, and their baby’s needs. In the workplace, colleagues might intentionally team up to help each other out with favors so that they can both benefit and reach their career goals. When these transactional-seeming relationships are collaborative instead of competitive, and mutually beneficial instead of self-serving, they cease to be purely result-oriented and toxic. As partners, colleagues and loved ones work together in a healthier way they can achieve common goals and strengthen their bond, rather than strain their relationship.”-

– Between your father and you (as it was between my mother and me), the transactional element was not between equals, as in between adult work colleagues, or between two adult parents. It started as and was between two very unequal people: a father (an adult in a position of total power over a young child) and a daughter (a child, a subject to a father’s power)). Therefore, the transactional relationship between parent and child cannot be collaborative and mutually beneficial: it is not something both sides (parent and child) decided on together for the benefit of both sides. Instead, it was something imposed on the weak child by the strong parent, with the intention (in the parent’s mind) to benefit.. the parent. Also, unlike in other contexts, it is never clear to the child what is expected of her day in and day out, how much and .. for how long.

Back to your quote: “When I take responsibility for feeling transactional and abandoned by N, it cues the same feelings of humility, weak, and scolded like a child. This feeling reminds me of how my dad made me feel, and the familiarity is confusing because it used to indicate me being manipulated, doubt in my own instincts that he was right and my feelings were wrong. So when I need to take responsibility for a feeling such as feeling transactional by N, how do I get the validation that I did the right thing and that he wasn’t in fact transactional?”-

– Your father did indeed make you feel transactional by his words, expressions and actions. He was wrong in doing that day in and day out, year after year, and he significantly hurt you. For you to no longer feel “weak,  and scolded like a child” in the context of N, you’ll need to become a strong, equal adult in the context of your father. If the price of having a relationship with F is that you remain a weak child… don’t have a relationship with him anymore.

The validation that you need will not come from F: he will not tell you that he was wrong all these years (unless he wants to manipulate you through an insincere admission of guilt), and that you were right. You have to .. well, Seaturtle will need to validate hatch having been right all along.

“I actually have a recent example of taking responsibility and feeling this way. The night before thanksgiving…  he was angry at a bad driver and called them the C word. This word makes me very uncomfortable, I have told him this numerous times. I told him again that it made me uncomfortable and to please not. He proceeded to say it again… he kept saying “oh the word c*** bothers you? I am not calling you and c***” just kept saying it. I called him an asshole for doing that… He said ‘words don’t mean sh*t, get that through your head…”-

– This is the first time that I read about N being crude and rude.. a surprise to me. Unlike what he said, words to mean a whole lot.

“He lectured me about how he doesn’t let anything outside of him have control over him and how I should do the same and not let a simple word ruin our evening”-

– The word he repeatedly used, offensive to you (and to many) was not something outside of him: he uttered it from the inside of him.

“He said ‘you get upset about things that don’t matter and I am tired of it.’..  in that moment I felt similarly to when my dad would manipulate me into believing my feelings were invalid“- N indeed invalidated your feelings in this instance.

“Confused I just agreed that a word/letters should not control me. I do actually still agree with that”- N shouldn’t utter a word/ letters that he knows are offensive to you (and to many others).

“But reflecting back I do not agree with him that ‘words don’t mean anything’ what is prayer then… I am tired of arguing with him about these things, we have been arguing more than usual the past couple weeks“- (1) I agree with you (2) I wonder what those other arguments were about…

“Yesterday morning… We went into the grocery store… He also grabbed a case of glass water bottles he liked and when we got to checkout looked at me cause he didn’t have his wallet… Anyways, at the store for the $20 water I pulled out cash from my wallet.. he said ‘um where did you get all that cash?’ I answered… he said ‘no that’s not all where it came from, where did it come from?’…  I said ‘I don’t remember’ he said ‘that’s suspicious you never have money and now you just have cash?’… he then said ‘you never have money and now you do and me asking makes me an a**hole? You know what, f**k you….I am just tired of these little arguments chipping away at our days together and both of our daily energy”-

– So this was one of those other arguments I was wondering about.. I am getting to know an N that I do not like.

I wrote to you: “I know that you did not read ANY of it wrong when it came to your Father“, and in response, you asked: “If I read it correctly before then why can’t I read it correctly now?“-

– a child closes her eyes to what is too threatening to see, so to not be afraid all the time. A child makes believe things are not so bad so to feel safer. It’s too threatening for a child to see that she is indeed stuck for what feels like an eternity with.. a guilt-tripping, transactional father, so she closes her eyes best she can, as in seeing-but-not-seeing.

I wrote to you: “When the part of you that believes your father … sides with the part of you who knows the truth… you will no longer project F into N.“. You asked: “In order to do this do I need to remember all the times I believed him? My memory of exact moments are not very clear and I remember feelings much more“- no, you don’t need to remember what you don’t remember.

“How do I do this, do I need to be around F to re-experience it and correctly label it?“- no. You need to be around Hatch.. or better say, invite her to be around you. Hold her hand, make her feel safe enough to open her eyes all the way and tell you what she sees.

“Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships“, is the title of your thread. Think of Hatch being in your gut. Think of Fear being in your gut as well. There needs to be a feeling of safety for Hatch, so that she is no longer stuck with fear.

Ask Hatch what makes/ made her feel safe through the years, will you? Ask her to speak to you as you type away whatever she says here on your thread (no wrong answers). Let her speak to you in her own child-like words…?

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I just returned from a chilly 3.5 mile pre-Thanksgiving meal and- on my walk- I added (in my mind) the following to my post above regarding authenticity and complexity: in the example of N’s feelings regarding your costume in the play, I figure he genuinely felt- at least for a moment or two-  that the costume exposed too much of your chest area and he genuinely cared about how you feel, not wanting to spoil your after-performance celebration, so he inhibited how he felt about your costume. Later on, after some alcohol, inhibitions lessened, he made a mild comment about the costume.

But notice this: he felt TWO genuine feelings at the same time (dislike of part of the costume and caring about your feelings). To authentically express one, he had to inhibit the other. This is what I mean by complexity.

anita

Happy Thanksgiving, Seaturtle and hatch!

I just finished and about to submit my reply to you, but depending on how you are spending the day, and it being a reply that’s not easy to process, please feel comfortable to postpone reading it to a time that’s right for you!

anita

Dear EdwardMatthew:

You are welcome here even if you “don’t even know what (you’re) writing!”

It is interesting how elevated stress works: “I’ve been feeling very stressed out for not working… don’t like anything to do other than  just stay in my room“-

– your body is quite stationary, not moving (staying in your room), but your thoughts are running: after you typed “I’ve been feeling very stressed out“, your sentences are run-on sentences, no punctuation, no periods, they keep running until your last sentence.

When thoughts are running all over, the brain is in a useless state of overdrive and the body can’t move, it’s weighted down by the thoughts.

So first, one needs to slow down the thoughts, and to turn down the volume of the loud, distressing thoughts.. to relax.

I have been in the mental (and physical) state you are in. Many people have. You can be in a different state: a relatively relaxed mental state where you see who you are and where you are with clarity, a state where clarity replaces confusion. From that mental state, you will know what to do next.

You mentioned not working, not taking part in family matters, and not having friends you can talk with about your mental state.. Would you like to talk more here, and elaborate on any of these three items you mentioned?

anita

Dear Seatutle: I will get back to you tomorrow ()- I just clicked on “insert/ edit link, typed in google for Source and heart for Image.. and let’s see if I get a heart after I submit this post…

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

First, the journal entry from yesterday (Tuesday): … N arrived late Sunday morning…

“I told him why I was bothered, and he did this thing I absolutely hate..  He says ‘what do you mean, I can’t take a two second phone call?’ downplaying what he does, like I am crazy. I said ‘No you took a phone call within 10 minutes of us getting up from sex, I was naked in front of you.’ He said ‘you wondered about (at) the time, how am I suppose to know we are still in that space,’… He gives me the dumbest look ever like he has ABSOLUTELY no idea why I would be bothered, just kind shakes his head, squinting his eyes. And shaking his head he says ‘I don’t understand why you allow things to bother you, and you have to ruin our morning because of it,’ this makes me feel invalidated… I still don’t understand… I don’t necessarily think what he did was wrong, but it was at least insensitive”-

– If it happened before that he took a phone call 10 minutes or so after the two of you had sex, while you were still naked, and you told him that it bothered you, and then, he did it again, maybe you’d have a legitimate complaint the 2nd time it happened.

I say “maybe” because (1) a person should be given some grace for forgetting once or twice, and (2) because depending on how long the list of his behaviors that bother you, it can be too difficult or impossible to remember all on a regular basis. If the list is long.. it’s a walking on egg shells experience for him.

If this Sunday was the first time this particular incident happened, he didn’t downplay what happened.. he simply didn’t know that taking that phone call would bother you: he is not a mind reader.

“I proceed to have a fantastic play .. the audience was really into it and fed into our performance, over all just the best genuine vibe. The whole cast was in their feels, there was so much sincerity in that room, people taking selfies, making future plans, congratulating each other, thanking each other“- excellent and congratulations!

“laughing N turns to me with a sad puppy dog face saying ‘that won’t happen to you right?’ At this point with a couple drinks he shows his real reactions to things, as I wish he did regularly”- you place way, way too much weight on what he said.. reads like he was having a light moment, having some fun following a couple of drinks.. nothing rude or offensive.

It seems like what you found offensive was not the words he uttered, but the words that silently crossed your mind about what he said.

“Then, I am afraid of your disappointment here but just listen to the whole story, I smoked a vape…After I smoked it.. I called him to just say goodnight and give it one last effort to see how he was. This time his voice was more uppity, happier, lighter and real? he said ‘please don’t feel bad…’ At the time I believed him but as I am been journaling here I don’t know if I do, he was probably ‘happier’ because he smoked a ton of weed when he got home, what he often does when he is stressed. This was the end of my day, but then the night began…

“I woke up at 3:30 am from a terrible nightmare, I looked over at the vape and suddenly it clicked to me, I was being spiritually attacked, this vape lowered my vibration so low that my armor was down and exposed to the spiritual realm. I dreamt of animals sticking their claws into my skin, it was the nicotine, I was running from the animals, everything in my body was telling me that nicotine was enabling me to be attacked…  Instead of going to sleep I got up at 3:30, to confront the darkness…  I let go of my resistance to the pain and I reached a peaceful moment where I was friends with the pain, it brought me joy and I smiled, realizing that I was okay, I could do it”-

– (1) the making friends with pain was a positive emotional- spiritual experience. (2) there is a close correlation between taking drugs and having spiritual experiences: this is what the 1960s counter culture generation was about, taking LSD aka dropping acid.  Many people of the counter culture at the time had positive spiritual awakenings as a result of some drugs, but such awakenings fizzled out and left no positive, lasting mark on neither the people of the 60s nor on the world as a whole, a world that is in more trouble than it ever was.

No doubt in my mind that nicotine is bad for you. I hope that you don’t vape (or smoke) again but I understand that you might. I don’t think less of you for vaping.. it’s just that it’s not good for you, or for anyone.

“But in the morning on my 5 am alarm and on my drive to hot Pilates…  I had a revelation; Hatchling was afraid that I would allow N to hurt me and stay with him! This hit me hard. I immediately wrote in my notes: ‘Maybe I don’t trust myself to move on if I am in a situation where I am being hurt. Hatch doesn’t trust that sea turtle will remove her from the situation and instead just take the abuse. So when there is the slightest illusion of abuse hatchling is like ‘what are you gonna do about this!’ But dear hatchling we can’t control everything, N has not yet done something to sincerely harm us, dad did. He is not dad. And if N does harm us (like we were harmed by dad) we will leave, because we are great alone and I am not afraid of being single and I am not afraid of leaving one love for another. I promise hatchling.'”-

– E x C e L L e N t   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“so what do you think/know about this?“- I think I answered this question above in regard to the 1960s  (did I?). You had a very positive emotional- spiritual experience. Don’t seek more spiritual awakenings by vaping more.. it doesn’t work on the long-run.

Secondly, your.. 2nd post from yesterday:

“Since 2018 when I went to Argentina… I lived there for 6 months… my first time living away from my parents..  may even be 2017 when I began therapy actually after my failed harm/suicide attempt did not pan out… I grew a lot in 2020 when I lived alone during quarantine… This year (2023) however, has been the most growth in the area of discovery why I feel the way I feel… I met Nathan mid-2021 and I think my self growth and self care took a halt because spending time with him was addicting and momentarily, for about a year pretty much felt like it solved my problems… Then move to Arizona, his priority was no longer me at the front… I move out. Now I am resuming the self care and discovery that I began before…

“Here’s what I think about when I ask myself ‘who am I?’: I am deeply connected to something on this earth, I am sensitive to people’s energies and to the dark and lightness of the world. I am artistic, I can bring things from my head out through my hand onto a surface. I am funny in my own way, People enjoy my ability to laugh at myself and say what is on my mind, I saw what is on my mind. I am trusting, which makes me vulnerable to manipulation. I am a healer of sorts, I know how to change people’s moods, I speak to people how I speak to myself, I am very in tuned with my inner dialogue and this makes me relatable to people. I am a super taster, my senses are sensitive inside and out. I see art and it moves me, I smell and taste food that makes me want to dance, I hear music through my bones. As a child I wasn’t allowed to watch certain things, but I snuck what I wanted to watch, I was always okay with not watching creepy or horror movies or even images. I could not let my mind see those things because of how sensitive I have always been to what I let into me, my imagination has allowed me to fully daydream and pass hours at a time in a daze. I am an optimist, despite having negative days of course, I believe things work out if you put good out it will return to you. I am spiritual as opposed to religious because I try to see the good in something when another person tells me it is wrong, there must be something right if that many people live by it right? I am (almost naturally said my name on here haha kinda want to) I am a Hawaiian flower dipped in Italian sas (yes sas not sauce haha). I am gentle, but I am firm about certain things. I am competitive. I am an empath, seeing people in pain pains me. I am open minded, I clash with closed minded people. I am one with music, I feel it very deeply and can move to the beat very well in different ways, my mom was a dance teacher and my sisters both dance, I watched LOTS of dance growing up and I am a self taught, not by the book at all,  ballerina, and contemporary dancer in my mirrors. I am thoughtful. I am of the Sea. I chose Seaturtle because I have a premonition I was a Seaturtle in a past life. I have been told my face has the shape of a turtle more than once hahaha AND I am deathly afraid of sharks for no reason. Sharks are the animal I am most curious about, they scare me and I am addicted to the fear in a weird way.”-

– I copied and pasted ALL that you shared about who you are because it is ALL precious, all valuable. And so beautifully articulated!

Thirdly, your 3rd post from yesterday: “I have been using this visual a lot the last couple days. However, how do you tell the voices apart at times. For example right now, N is planning to bring over dinner and spend the eve with me tonight. Some part of me wants him to come, a hug sounds nice, his smile and cuddles and eating together all sound good. Another part of me wonders if him coming over is best, if I need to be alone, I feel a little anxious that he will trigger me… Does hatchling want to tell N not to come? Or is it Seaturtle who wants to protect hatchling and tell N not to come? in other words who wants him to come for a hug and comfort, Seaturtle or hatchling?”-

– Hatchling is the one who wants N to come over, wanting N to hug her, wanting to see his smile, to feel his cuddles and to eat with him and it is Hatchling who is afraid that N will trigger and upset her. Hatchling is the part of you that feels and thinks short-term, with a very close/ no-distance association with what she feels. An example would be, Hatchling feels fear of N triggering her and she thinks: I will call him and tell him to not come over and immediately calls him.

Seaturtle is the part of you who- from some distance from Hatchling, with some objectivity/ looking at the bigger picture- is thinking about what’s best for Hatchling considering hatchling’s feelings and closely associated thoughts, as well as considering past experience and overall goals in regard to healing (the bigger picture), trying to come up with a logical, sensible long-term solution to the conflict that Hatchling is experiencing. An example would be, Seaturtle thinks: Hatchling is conflicted, let me have a talk with her (similar to a parent talking to their scared child) .. And she decides what best for Hatchling based on that talk. Maybe what’s best for Hatchling in this case would be to have N come over for only an hour, a predetermined amount of time.

“Yes I feel this. Although I know who I am to an extent as I wrote above, I still freeze and forget who I am”- when we freeze, we forget. True to everyone. Try to not get alarmed by what is true to everyone.

“Exactly, hearing her is where I am now. But As I wrote earlier about who I am, can I know who I am and still struggle to hear hatchling? Or do you need to fully be in-tuned and have a good relationship with hatchling to know who you are?“-

– the more in tune you are with Hatchling, the better relationship you have with her, the more you hear her=> the more you  know who you are/ the better your mental-emotional (and spiritual) health.

Very possible.

“– my understanding: hatchling has been trying so hard to gain her father’s approval by behaving in ways that would gain his approval, ways that didn’t feel true to her, or didn’t yet feel true to her (hatchling needed time and opportunities to become her true, genuine self).  “

“When I met N, I did not want to conform for someone to like me, and I was very aware of this tendency, but what if at some point I just unknowingly fell back into this pattern and tried to be what he wanted for his approval. Hm I have to think more about this idea..”-

– our initial, awareness-based, newer intents (to not conform, in this case) fizzle out/ weaken over time while old tendencies and old patterns become stronger. This is why it is very important to .. live life mindfully on a regular basis.

I wrote to you: “Whenever she succeeded in getting F’s (temporary, conditional) approval, she said to herself something like: he didn’t approve of the true me..“, and your response (at the end of your 3rd post):  “Very accurate. As I was writing this final response I felt nervous that it was going to overwhelm you with how much I have written. Please don’t feel like you need to rush to respond or to too much at once. Thank you.. Seaturtle and hatch”-

– (1) reads to me that you were afraid of losing me/ my support here.. to the overwhelm factor..? No worries, hatchling. I like you!  You are not too much for me!  (2)You are both welcome, Seaturtle and hatch!

anita

Dear Stacy:

(I am adding the boldface feature to the following quotes): “I really appreciated being chosen by him because he was the type of guy who didn’t go for the conventional types. I respect when a guy isn’t attracted to those types because I have never identified that way. I always knew I was the outcast with alternative quirks…protect myself from bullies. I liked that he not only saw this as special in me, he resonated with it too and it made us feel like a team, us against the world“-

– an outcast: a person who has been rejected by society (online definition). Wikipedia has a long entry on social rejection. It reads in part: “Social rejection occurs when an individual is deliberately excluded from a social relationship or social interaction. The topic includes interpersonal rejection (or peer rejection), romantic rejection and familial estrangement…  rejection can be either active, by bullying, teasing, or ridiculing, or passive by ignoring a person, or giving the ‘silent treatment’…<sup id=”cite_ref-2″ class=”reference”></sup>Although humans are social beings, some level of rejection is an inevitable part of life. Nevertheless, rejection can become a problem when it is prolonged or consistent, when the relationship is important, or when the individual is highly sensitive to rejection… <sup id=”cite_ref-3″ class=”reference”></sup>The experience of rejection can lead to a number of adverse psychological consequences such as loneliness, low self-esteem, aggression, and depression. It can also lead to feelings of insecurity and a heightened sensitivity to future rejection…<sup id=”cite_ref-5″ class=”reference”></sup>

“The need for love and belongingness is a fundamental human motivation… Psychologists believe that simple contact or social interaction with others is not enough to fulfill this need. Instead, people have a strong motivational drive to form and maintain caring interpersonal relationships”.

This entry on social isolation makes me understand myself better and it helps me understand you (and other people) better. I now understand your intense and prolonged sensitivity to rejection by him, why- as the title of your thread indicates- the breakup has been so “Extremely painful“.

Like me, you’ve been rejected by peers, and worse: you were bullied by peers.  Plus, like me, you suffered from familial estrangement. In the entry, it reads (again, quoting): “The need for love and belongingness is a fundamental human motivation… Psychologists believe that simple contact or social interaction with others is not enough to fulfill this need. Instead, people have a strong motivational drive to form and maintain caring interpersonal relationships“-

– you lived your whole life with your family, being in daily contact and interacting with family members.. but these interactions were not caring-enough for you: not enough to fulfil your unfulfilled fundamental human need for love and belongingness.

Back to what you wrote, the quote with which I started this post: you felt like he, a fellow outcast of sorts, an unconventional, quirky type, chose you as a positively special person to be “a team, us against the world“. Without this team, you are back to being all alone, back to your prolonged and consistent experience of social isolation.

I now understand why the pain of the breakup has been so intense, prolonged and consistent, why “It feels like a cinderblock on (your) heart“.

“Our third weekend together/date was on October 8th of last year… I’m assuming now in retrospect that he literally meant he had JUST messaged her this that weekend…This further supports my new notion that he lied to me about when things officially ended with his ex. He told me it had been two months before we met. Yet here, he claimed LAST WEEKEND (as in the weekend prior to us meeting) he was heartbroken???… I don’t sense one part of him being remotely in turmoil or ‘heartbroken’ over ME.”-

– I now understand why every word he said, every emotion he expressed.. matters to you so much. From one point on, in your mind, he was the only person in the whole wide world who (you felt) satisfied that “need for love and belongingness“, a need that psychologists refer to as “a fundamental human motivation“.

No wonder you are still so emotionally attached to him, why you don’t let him go. Question is: can you have this fundamental human motivation directed elsewhere..?

anita